Scaling Additive Manufacturing Means Scaling its Workforce: AM Radio #33

Bringing additive manufacturing to scale production also means scaling the workforce trained to design, manage and carry out that production. While some fundamentals stay the same across material and process, learning the intricacies of specific applications and industries takes time. What is the role of the university in preparing the next generation of additive manufacturers? What should industry expect in new hires, and how can companies upskill their existing workforce? And what are the “soft skills” or personality traits that make for a successful user of additive manufacturing? 

In this episode of the AM Radio podcast, I discuss training and education options for additive with Dr. Tim Simpson, professor of mechanical and industrial engineering at Penn State University and contributor to Additive Manufacturing Media (among his various other roles). This episode is the first of a series that will feature Simpson as cohost.

                                                                               

Transcript

Stephanie Hendrixson  00:00

Hi, welcome to AM Radio. Today we're welcoming a new voice to the show. I'm Stephanie Hendrixson and in this episode I'm going to be talking about AM training, education and skills with Dr. Tim Simpson. That's coming up on AM Radio.

Peter Zelinski  00:27

This episode of the AM Radio podcast is brought to you by PTXPO, the trade show for North American plastics professionals. Join Additive Manufacturing Media and sister brand Plastics Technology for PTXPO 2023, coming in March. Find more information at plasticstechnologyexpo.com.

Stephanie Hendrixson  00:51

Welcome to AM Radio. My name is Stephanie Hendrixson. And I am joined today for the first time by a guest host. Welcome Dr. Tim Simpson.

Tim Simpson  00:59

Hey, Stephanie. Thanks for having me. Great to be here.

Stephanie Hendrixson  01:01

So Tim, we've worked together in various capacities on Additive Manufacturing Media. You've been a longtime contributor with the Additive Insights column, co-host of our video series AMWTF, why the failure? You're going to be directing the DfAM track at Formnext Forum with us in Austin, but outside of the way that you've contributed to Additive Manufacturing Media. What all do you do? And what is your background?

Tim Simpson  01:25

Yeah, I can't believe how long we've been working together already six, six years of column coming to an end here soon. So it's been a great, great experience. Thanks for having me. My day job is at Penn State. I'm a professor there in Mechanical and Industrial Engineering. This is actually year 25 now, and both of those, my background is degrees in mechanical. So I've always been interested in product design, product development. In the last 10-15 years now sort of deep dive into additive manufacturing. I've been fortunate co-director on CIMP-3D our Center for Innovative Material Processing through direct digital deposition at Penn State that has some cutting edge additive manufacturing technology for metal 3D printing, whether it's powder bed fusion, directed energy deposition, binder jetting and a little bit of everything else. So it's it's been a fun and exciting adventure, and certainly makes it fun to come to work every day.

Stephanie Hendrixson  02:20

And so along with directing the program there at Penn State, the masters in additive manufacturing, and all that you do as a teacher and a trainer, I know that you've done some research into the types of skills, the types of courses, the types of degrees and things that are available to people who want to get into additive manufacturing. And in fact, at the Additive Manufacturing Conference last year, in 2022, you gave a talk to that effect, considering all the different ways that somebody could get involved in additive and the things that manufacturers should be considering as they're looking to staff up for additive. So I thought we could start off your first appearance on the podcast just by talking about that today.

Tim Simpson  03:02

Sure, absolutely. So one of our roles with CIMP-3D was serving as a demonstration facility for additive manufacturing. And so when we opened our doors, geez, 12 years ago or so now, a lot of companies were coming through and asking all these questions on what is additive? How do I 3D print metals, all these sorts of things. And as we were doing that, looking around, we realized there were not a lot of training and educational opportunities. Most universities offered sort of like an intro to 3D printing course. So your material extrusion, here's the processes, maybe a lab, hands-on or a project, but there certainly wasn't any sort of in-depth programs, no degrees, starting to see a few sort of webinars and short courses popping up. But you know, we saw there there was definitely interest and and a need to create something that was a bit more formal. But it was a bit of chicken and egg, too, right? Because as we are learning about the processes and how they work and how to design for additive and qualification and all those aspects, there was still a lot of research and development underway that then the companies wanted to teach, right? So now how do you quickly transfer and disseminate that information? Early on, actually one of the first short courses, John Hart up at MIT there has his additive course. I was co-teaching a different course at the same time and met John and went over and actually started helping out with his design for additive manufacturing portion of his lecture. And we were sort of crowdsourcing information from different articles, different labs, he was pulling all that together. And then when I was back at Penn State, and we realized that we had hired and started sort of a graduate level course in mechanical engineering and industrial engineering and material science, sort of the core curriculum that then we were able to pull together into a brand new additive manufacturing and design degree. That was almost six years ago now. And all of a sudden, you know, several other universities were starting to do and think the same thing. Carnegie Mellon was out there, University of Maryland at the same time. So now, all of a sudden, you go from zero to, you know, a handful of master's level, degree and or concentrations, if you will, at universities for additive manufacturing.

Stephanie Hendrixson  05:25

So you've been involved on the teaching end, but you're also aware of like all of these other programs that are out there. I've looked into this a little bit, too, we have a resource on Additive Manufacturing Media about how to find a career in additive, recommended resources, recommended skills, that sort of thing. The interesting thing that I found in looking specifically at degree programs is there aren't really any undergraduate options. It's like you can maybe find a focus, you can maybe find a couple of classes. But if you really want an additive manufacturing degree, seems like either it's an associate level, a two-year program, or it's a master's level. And I wonder if you have any insight on why that might be?

Tim Simpson  06:02

No, I think I totally agree with you there. So I think your your resource that you guys put together in terms of trying to find a career comes at it from the industry side, sort of looking, looking in or backwards, right? Hey, what if I want to do this in my career? What where can I go? And what do I need to learn? I think we're learning universities have come from is sort of the student-focused view, hey, while they're here, what can we add to it and or what would attract students to do a master's degree with us? Again, over time, there may end up being an undergraduate degree in additive. But it's, it's a challenge, because it really is a mix of you need, you need the design side and the engineering side, you need the material science in depth, you know, the process knowledge inspection. And so a lot of where the natural tendency then is, okay, well, let's create a graduate program where we can pull on these things and add depth versus trying to create a whole new curriculum at the undergraduate level as well, you have to deal with accreditation ABET, for example, in engineering programs, so you have all other you know, math and science and writing and all of these other things that you would have to students would have to take. So in some ways, it's easier at the master's level, to create a new degree. And I think that what I've seen universities do, though, at the undergraduate level is almost put in a, call it an additive track, as you were saying, or like a spine, if you will, so hey, freshman year, first-year student, let's introduce them to 3D printing as part of a design project or something. Hey, sophomore, year now we're doing our make and break lab, right statics and dynamics, oh, well, maybe we'll do some 3D printed parts versus, you know, metal parts or whatever. And then junior year, you know, another design course, let's get into processes. And of course, where most universities expose students, if they haven't gotten it already, certainly at their capstone, senior design experience in engineering, majority of universities, I would say our students are using touching and working with 3D printers by then, if they haven't already, so it's in there. I just say currently, it's not not a concentration yet. And then to your point, right, those looking for Associate Degrees are more, I'd say, probably technicians, operators, you know, how do I really run and maintain these printers? And all of the associated systems? Not just what are the fundamental, you know, the physics behind the processes and the materials knowledge and stuff that we would tend to teach undergrads or, or more so graduate-level students?

Stephanie Hendrixson  08:29

Yeah, so sort of different goals there as well. And I think this is something that maybe we've even talked about in the past. Is it trying to put a new technology like additive into the engineering curriculum? Like, is there anything you can get rid of? Or is anything you can shift around to make room for that? And I think, yeah, you're shaking your head. So probably no.

Tim Simpson  08:48

It's it's tough, right? I mean, you have to in engineering, right? Everything that you have to cover, and we're already you know, additive is competing with all the other new technologies right now. Where's how are we going to squeeze AI in there? How are we going to squeeze VR in there? How are we going to squeeze, you know, all of these sort of Industry 4.0 technologies, because the world, the world is going digital, and you know, it's changing engineering. Eventually, we're gonna have to figure it out. So I like to think additive has been leading the way in a sense, because it is a, you know, largely a digital process, a lot of those aspects. So it becomes, becomes a way of starting to challenge and transform what we're teaching and how we're teaching. But not all universities, not all faculty, not all students necessarily want to want to do that yet. So we'll see where it goes.

Stephanie Hendrixson  09:35

So I want to circle back to something that you said earlier about how universities are taking kind of the student perspective, looking at ways that they can entice students into these types of programs and into these types of classes. And sort of flip that around, like what is really needed by the industry, what are companies trying to implement additive, what are they looking for? What types of training?

Tim Simpson  09:56

Great question, right and I think that's the survey that I did with looking at what what are the courses, programs, certificates, short courses and offerings out there? You know, sort of a, I don't know if it's a disconnect, but certainly a gap between what are we as faculty teaching in the university versus what do the companies need and want? And I think one of the things I've noticed, the courses that already exist at universities, that intro to 3D printing, right, it's let's talk about the workflow, let's talk about the seven processes, and then maybe we will do a project, right? So it's very technology focused, versus companies, I think it's more so, is where and how does additive fit in with all of my other production technology? Right? Is it truly going to replace everything, like you know, like, all the hype is saying? No, it's not. You know, where and how do I deploy it? Oh, and by the way, there are multiple different types of additive, right? So it's not just pick one, and then you're all good. So it's much more business driven, cost driven, value driven, within companies. And I think that's a different perspective, from what most faculty and students are used to seeing in a classroom. They're not, they're not driven, largely by those cost decisions, by the availability of material, by throughput, quality control inspection, that they're gonna make or break a business case in industry. So I think what companies are really looking for these days, you know, we've we've hit an inflection point, right, we're now really pushing, how do we do production with additive? How do we industrialize this within a company, within a particular industry, and in order to do that, you've got to have a viable business case. And at the end of the day, you know, you're not going to fly your 3D printed part because it's cool, right? It's got to buy its way on to the, to the airplane, to the car, to the helicopter, into your hip, like any other part. And so understanding all of those aspects that contribute to, is my part going to meet the requirements? And is it going to be cost effective relative to other things? And you know, is there a value add to doing additive versus something else? And if not, why change? Status quo might work, and so you got to be realistic in this just because you can 3D print, it doesn't mean you always should, right?

Stephanie Hendrixson  12:10

Yeah. And you're describing like another challenge associated with that. So there are the seven different families, there are all these different processes and materials, but additive is existing in all of these other pre-established industries. So the requirement of the aerospace industry is going to be different from a medical implant is going to be different from automotive. And so there's really a lot that you have to take into account and a lot for somebody to learn to be able to be effective at applying it.

Tim Simpson  12:37

Yeah, and we we've been fortunate there with our laboratory, the director, Rich Martukanitz initially, and now Ted Reutzel, are part of the applied research lab. And so that is a Navy-affiliated university research center, so we're doing much more applied programs and projects there. But at the end of the day, we have to print parts and manufacture them that can be used on ships and helicopters and things. And so I've been fortunate to be exposed to these projects and programs where I got to know the cost, I got to know, the material selection, I got to figure out, you know, do I use this machine versus that machine, right? And so I'm getting that very real world experience, while I'm still in the lab at university, and I'm extremely fortunate there and then now we've been able to work with tons of companies over the past decade, you know, seeing and learning what are the pain points for them, right? What are the big challenges to really implementing this and taking advantage of it? So end of the day, if I you know, if I miscalculated my cost, then somehow I got you know, that comes out comes out of my pocket. So I better, I better know the cost, I better know the the likelihood of failure, I better do my process simulation. And so as I have had those experiences across different companies across different industries, that's been very, I'm very good at sort of recognizing and seeing patterns to then say, oh, geez, here's now what we need to teach. That goes into material science course, that goes into the design course, that goes into the process course, that then helps enrich our whole additive degree program as a whole working with you know, multiple different faculty. Oh, IP is an issue. We need a course taught by somebody with, you know, business law, or a legal background who can do this, I can't do this. So let's bring in an outside expert, local colleagues and go there I'd say in the past year and a half now, given all the supply chain disruptions a lot of my business colleagues are getting in the game. What's the supply chain? What are the economics? Do I do additive in house? Do I outsource it? Well, there's no models out there. What are the cost? I don't know. Boom, there's, you know, there's a new course right you need to cover all of that, some of which doesn't exist yet.

Stephanie Hendrixson  14:51

Yeah. So in your experience, like working with companies that are adopting additive, like is it more the case that they are looking to make new hires? They're looking for new talent to come in with these skills? Or is it more that they are kind of retraining and investing in people that they already have to make this happen?

Tim Simpson  15:08

Great question. I think those that are sort of aggressively pursuing it are doing both, right? How do we upskill our current employees because you know, end of the day that senior project manager, program manager, he or she's gonna have to sign off on this and take the risk and make the investment and stuff. So you, you can't have a new hire doing those things yet. But at the same time, then how do you bring on new talent that isn't fixated on this manufacturing process or another, right, they don't have those blinders on because they've been doing, designing parts to be machined or cast for 20 years. And so how do you sort of get the existing employees, start breaking down the the mental barriers, the inertia, overcoming the risks and challenges perceived, or otherwise, and at the same time, let's bring in new talent, fresh ideas that may have grown up, built their own 3D printers, right? They've been printing out things since middle school or whatever timeframe. They're not scared by this technology. So the companies that are going to do this well are able to sort of connect those two together. And so there then, what are back to, you know, training, right? What are the short courses or webinars, the things that the existing employees can take to upskill? And then how do we augment and expand the offerings for undergrads and grads to those new hires so that they make and start to fill in those gaps.

Stephanie Hendrixson  16:32

All right, so I think we'll take a break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the hard and soft skills that make someone successful at additive manufacturing.

Peter Zelinski  16:42

This episode of the AM Radio podcast is brought to you by PTXPO, the event for the plastics industry in North America. If your business is involved in plastics processing, moldmaking or additive manufacturing for plastics production, this is the event for you. With more than 100,000 square feet of exhibits, PTXPO offers the latest in plastics technology. Immerse yourself in free educational sessions, experience equipment demonstrations and participate in numerous networking opportunities. PTXPO will connect you with solutions providers who can unlock the right answers for your operation. Join Additive Manufacturing Media and sister brands, Plastics Technology and MoldMaking Technology for PTXPO 2023 The event takes place March 28 through 30 in Chicago, Illinois. Find more information about attending, exhibiting or sponsoring this event at plasticstechnologyexpo.com.

Stephanie Hendrixson  17:45

And we're back. I'm Stephanie Hendrixson. I've been talking to Dr. Tim Simpson about training and education for additive manufacturing. In the first half, we talked about some of the different courses and options and things to think about if you're trying to get into additive or if you're a manufacturer looking to hire people for additive. But in this half of the show, I think we want to talk a little bit more philosophically, maybe, about like, what are the different types of skills that actually make someone good at additive manufacturing? And what are the things that companies need to be looking for? So I've done kind of my own informal survey just on Twitter and LinkedIn asking people to answer this question. But Tim, I know you've done like some more formal research into this. Can you tell us about it?

Tim Simpson  18:28

Sure. Absolutely. Yeah, we actually worked with a team of graduate students in industrial and organizational psychology here at Penn State a couple years ago and surveyed about 120 people in industry contacts that I had had, that worked with our lab and projects, and actually came to a list of 15 or 16, sort of top skills that bubbled up in terms of what are, you know, what makes a good additive manufacturing engineer? So then it's a combination of sort of what are the things that are unique to additive, as well as what makes you a good engineer? Now, given the state of additive manufacturing, you know, it's continuing to evolve at a rapid pace, right. And so it's not just read this book, read this manual. I think the state of knowledge for additive manufacturing and the processes is in such flux right now and changing that we found there were a lot of what people like to call soft skills, right, in terms of being able to take risk, learn from mistakes, communicate effectively, that were absolutely critical to being successful in industry right now, with additive manufacturing.

Stephanie Hendrixson  19:36

Yeah, that's so true. Like there's no one master guidebook or textbook that will teach you everything you need to know about additive manufacturing, because it's still being developed. It's still in flux. And so machine-specific or process-specific training only takes you so far. Let's just talk a little bit about like, what are those fundamental things that people can be learning or can be developing that could be applied to to a variety of different technologies or even, you know, whatever process and whatever 3D printing technology is coming next,

Tim Simpson  20:07

Yeah, I think the feedback you got online and social media, right, you know, the math, the CAD, that workflow, if you will, going from your solid model, orienting it, slicing it for this process, or that I think is sort of independent, whether you're doing plastics, polymers, or metals. And so I think those, what we've seen in, in the training that I've done in companies and sort of our programs, right, those are consistent now. Those are pretty stable and steady. Yeah, you might use a different slicing program. Or you might slice differently for this powder bed system versus that powder bed system. But there are some fundamental things that are common, irrespective of material, the technology and what it is you're trying to 3D print.

Stephanie Hendrixson  20:53

Yeah. So it's less about the specific tool, like the specific slicer or other type of software or machine that you're using, more about understanding what's happening in that step and what the goals are.

Tim Simpson  21:05

Yeah, I agree. And I've been co-teaching a lot with, with John Barnes recently through, through the Barnes Global Advisors there. And one of the things he likes to stress coming from industry, you know, requirements are still requirements. And additive is going to have to meet those just like machining, casting, forging or anything else, right. And so you start with requirements, and then figure out how are you going to get there, cost effectively, on schedule, on budget, whether it's powder bed fusion, or DED or, or something else. And so whether you're coming at it, from my perspective, teaching in a classroom or that perspective, the fundamentals are very similar in both cases, it's just the ordering in which you put those to make decisions in industry is different than what we typically teach in, you know, in a classroom environment.

Stephanie Hendrixson  21:55

It's something that came up in my survey, and maybe in yours as well, is this emphasis that additive shouldn't exist in a vacuum, that it's useful to the additive manufacturing engineer to also understand injection molding or CNC machining, or these other types of processes to make sure that they're choosing the best case for, for additive.

Tim Simpson  22:15

Absolutely right. You need to be able to compare and contrast to all those other manufacturing processes. And so that's not going to change. I think the other big piece here as well is understanding the risks, whether they're real or perceived associated with those different processes, right. And so I think that's a big thing, particularly in industry. Hey, this part is flight critical, if something happens, and it it breaks, catastrophic failure, right, lives are at stake here. And so you really do have to take that into consideration and balance that against the current state of the technology, how well is it known and, and in a lot of companies, right, there's a big fear of failure, if something gets out in the field and fails, obviously, that is a bad thing. But internal now to your design and development, if you are also very averse, risk averse or afraid of failing early in the prototyping stages or early in testing, then you're going to tend to default to these other manufacturing processes. And so you need to be, you know, willing to learn, you need to be able to take sort of calculated risks, solve problems, and of course, communicate what's, what's going on there. I think those were all some of the big things you found in your survey and mine as well.

Stephanie Hendrixson  23:31

Yeah, so changing gears and talking a little bit more about those soft skills. I think that additive really demands kind of a tenacious personality, like talking to people who have gone through lots and lots of design iterations to arrive at something that works and just hearing them discuss, like, here are all the different things that we tried, we were trying to remove material here, we changed the material multiple times. You know, I think if you don't have the kind of personality to just keep trying stuff over and over. It's not going to work out very well.

Tim Simpson  24:02

Yeah, yeah. Resilient. Yeah. Those failures, I still remember early program we had, took us eight, eight iterations to get to this, this piston crown we were working on and just like every time let's, ooh, you know, you'll, you'll figure something out, try something else and then that fails, right? And you're just banging your head against the wall saying, goodness gracious. So you got to have some perseverance. You got to be resilient to that, you got to be willing to learn, you need that attention to detail, right? Like okay, well, we got to go in and figure out well, why, why did this fail? Where did that collision come from? What happened? Why did we not have enough powder? It's all these failures that happen in the lab on the machine, right, that don't make it out there in the public and certainly as a faculty member, I can't write a paper on a failure and publish that, so that was a great opportunity to work with you guys on AMWTF, Additive Manufacturing: Why The Failure? And actually we took failures from our lab and my projects in particular, put them out there on LinkedIn. And we weren't sure what you know, what sort of response we would get. But it turned into such a great learning opportunity, because people were either jumping in saying, well, here's what you know, their thought, here's why this failed. No, it was this. No, it was that. Everybody was replying back and forth. And then other people were jumping in and saying, well, here's the information that I need to then figure out and diagnose that failure, right. So became this sort of dual mode of learning, not only what, what were the causes, but what is now the process for diagnosing these failures, sort of almost a root cause analysis that I think the whole community ended up learning from. And so we ran that, you know, four times with many of my part failures, and I'm glad others got, got to learn from those. I think that was a great learning experience. That is atypical, right, it's not in a classroom, it's not a homework assignment. It's not a lab, yet so much learning that went on from from being able to share and discuss those in an open forum on social media.

Stephanie Hendrixson  26:04

Yeah, it was cool to follow along and just kind of see how everybody approached the problem a little bit differently, and from their own particular skill set. And that's something that we've talked about too, that like, once you get past sort of the fundamentals, there's like a specialization that happens. And you have to kind of dive deep into one of these areas. But then ultimately, you need all of that expertise to make this work.

Tim Simpson  26:25

So one of the one of the things that came out of that discussion, that AMWTF series was, we realized that we didn't really have a good vocabulary around failures and root cause analysis and sort of this diagnosis, right? And so then there was a whole sidebar discussion on well, you know, what do we call this versus what do we call that? I think it's this. No, it's that. And so again, you now through that learning, you've identified a whole new area that we need to investigate, try and codify somehow, so that then we can teach it and disseminate it to others that are out there.

Stephanie Hendrixson  26:57

Yeah. And I think that maybe connects to one last big kind of skill set that we've been talking about. And that's those communication skills, getting everybody talking the same language, understanding the issues, understanding the possibilities, that's a real talent.

Tim Simpson  27:10

You know, communication is absolutely critical in this field right now. And so one of the challenges, as you said, there's just so much to learn, it's hard for any one individual to do that. And so additive is a team sport, you need the engineers, you need the manufacturers, you need the material scientists that are in there. And so if you don't have at least sort of a baseline of a common vocabulary and terminology, then you're just going to be talking over each other, at the heart of that is the shared common understanding, the shared common vocabulary that then allows us to, hey, as I start to specialize in this area, or that area, I can distill it, bring it down, and communicate it effectively to others in the organization or to my manager, or to the customers. And whether you're, you know, a sales engineer that's out there trying to sell machines, a faculty member trying to educate students, right, or whether you're a project manager trying to make a case to invest in a new additive capability, you need to be able to communicate that to different stakeholders who care about different things.

Stephanie Hendrixson  28:12

Yeah, I think what you said about distilling it down to something that's easily understandable. And I can just think of like engineers that I've had a chance to meet, who really get it and have that sort of natural ability. Maybe two years ago, I went to visit Siemens Energy, and SJ Jones was there at the time, got to talk to SJ about all the different things they were working on. And just looking around their workspace, there were all of these like failed prints and like support structures and different pieces that were just there in order to teach the customer these things that they needed to understand. That the support structure is not delicate, it is something that is going to be difficult to remove later. Invite them to try and bend it, try and break it, try to understand what you're actually doing when you're adding more and more supports to a part. There was this, this part, I don't know what it was literally, but it was a metal piece that had been cut off the build plate and not heat treated. And it had that whole potato chip effect happening. And that was an example of okay, if you say you want to skip the heat treat, this is what you're signing on for, like this is what can potentially happen and just having those kinds of like tests and sample pieces sitting around and knowing, you know, when to show that to the customer and how to explain it and thinking about it in those types of really visual clear terms.

Tim Simpson  29:27

Alright, yeah, SJ is great in terms of communicating. I think having the visuals, I can go in and lecture nonstop with PowerPoint slides and talk about build failures and the challenges of removing support structures, but when I drop a metal part on your desk, and you got to figure out how you're gonna get those support structures off, you know, that hands on tactile experience, and then you slice your fingers and whatever, you will remember that and as you're saying that about sort of what what you saw at Siemens there we we have something sort of similar in our lab at Penn State because the parts that are left in the lab are the failures. Anything that's good goes to the sponsor, right. So any failures along the way, get left behind. And so I sort of jokingly referred to it as the Island of Misfit Toys, right? But it's this collection of things that just something was quite off, wrong, this, that or the other that that's what we point to. That's what we talk about. And we didn't start out that way. But you're absolutely right, that becomes the learning that that's what they remember when they leave, leave the lab, leave the tour. They've seen it, they feel it, they've touched it, they're like, oh, yeah, this is metal, this is titanium. Those supports are titanium. They're not coming off, right. I can't just like, tap it, and it's gonna fall off. Oh, shoot, I shook it. What's this powder? Oh, geez, I gotta get that out. Right, you know, those are the things you'll remember those long after the tour is done. So there's all these new skills and things that people need to learn now, right? And we've talked a little bit about, okay, I can go back to university and get a degree, I can do a short course, I can do this. And I think the big challenge now that the whole industry is facing is the scalability issue. So how do I scale this up cost effectively, timewise to all 10,000 engineers, 80,000 engineers, my sales force, right? And so I think we're getting to, we're starting to see sort of a new level of sophistication and recognizing not everybody needs to learn all of these skills. You know, it's almost like a pyramid is sort of how we talk about it with Barnes Global Advisors, sort of what does everybody needs to know? And then you start to get intermediate and more advanced levels. And as you're doing that, at the same time, how do you scale that out? And so what technologies are you using? Hey, a webinar that everybody can see, versus a hands-on lab? Well, I can only get so many people in there at a time. And if I can only get 10 people in there, and I got to have 1,000 people through, well, you can do the math on how long that's going to take. So I think the companies that are going to really lead this transformation are those that can not only upskill, but scale the upskilling at the same time.

Stephanie Hendrixson  32:04

All right, so I think we'll leave it here for today. Thank you for joining me, Tim. And we'll have you back on the show a few more times throughout the year.

Tim Simpson  32:12

Thanks for having me. It's been fun.

Stephanie Hendrixson  32:14

If you want to learn more about anything that we talked about in this episode, there will be links to more information in the show notes. If you like the show, be sure to subscribe to AM Radio on your favorite podcast platform and please give us a five-star rating. Tell a friend about us, spread the word. And if you're looking for more about the manufacturing industry, our sister podcast Made in the USA just launched a new season. Hosts Brent Donaldson and Pete Zelinski, who you've heard on this show are traveling the country visiting companies choosing to manufacture in the United States. Look for Made in the USA wherever you get podcasts. We'll be back soon with more AM Radio. Thanks for listening. AM Radio is recorded with help from Austin Grogan. The show is edited by Jodee McElfresh and me, Stephanie Hendrixson. Our artwork is by Kate Billberry. AM Radio and Additive Manufacturing Media are products of Gardner Business Media located in the Queen City, Cincinnati, Ohio. I'm Stephanie Hendrixson. Thanks for listening.